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the Jack ([info]buggery) wrote,
@ 2007-08-14 21:21:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:lj

Hold that 'yay' -- everything is NOT suddenly okay.
Yays, LiveJournal/SixApart are being reasonable again! -- or are they?

Let's have a look.

A single, easy to find policy document -- yay, right? Right...?

So, we're working on creating a single policy document that is linked from the bottom of every page in the LiveJournal application. To be completely honest, it's going to take us a little bit of time to get that done, since we want to work with everyone from our community as well as the usual folks like lawyers. We think it will be a few weeks, and we'll update on progress as that happens.
Two problems.

One, there's no indication that any aspect of this forthcoming policy document will be discussed with the userbase while it is in draft form; indeed, the biz post implies precisely the opposite, since the 'Process Change for Non-Photographic Images' policy has apparently gone into immediate effect, despite having serious language problems (see lumping together and banned without warning below). Apparently 'everyone from our community' doesn't actually include everyone who uses LiveJournal.

Two, we have yet to see a statement promising that users will never again be (and should never have been in the first place) suspended, banned, deleted or otherwise penalised for 'violating' a policy which had never been shared publicly with LJ's customers prior to the punitive action. This kind of ex post facto attack is at the very heart of why both fandom and non-fandom LJ users have been outraged by the Strikethrough and Boldend user suspensions.


Yay, they're not lumping together fandom and child pornographers anymore! They say they don't -- right...?
Today we're announcing a revision to the process of how we deal with reports of child pornography. (Please note: We *know* there's a difference between the vast majority of fan art and child porn. We're definitely not lumping these things together.)
Let's leave entirely aside their qualification that it's 'the vast majority of fan art' which isn't child porn. (In fairness, someone could, in fact, take a real photograph of a real child being sexually abused which was real child pornography, apply a couple of Photoshop or GIMP filters, and claim it's fanart.* They'd be sneered out of any fandom they tried that tactic in, and quite likely be reported by fandom users themselves, but that's neither here nor there.)

They say they know the difference. Yet they fail to distinguish between fanart and child pornography, twice, later in the very post in which they've made that claim:
  • (b) Our process for drawings, cartoons, animation and other non-photographic images is slightly different. An image of this type that obviously violates our policy will be treated the same as a photographic image of child pornography [emphasis mine] (see banned without warning and two-strikes below)

  • Many of you have asked about whether or not it is OK to link to outside content that falls into the category of child pornography, and the short answer is no, it's not OK. (see policy on links below)
And as usual, the conflation of child pornography and {non-photographic artwork depicting naked and/or sexually positioned persons under the age of eighteen, whether the subjects are real or fictional persons} is rampant in comments by LJ staff in comments on the post.


No more witch-hunts for objectionable material in fandom journals -- can we say yay yet...?
To start with, the ground rules: We accept all reports of potential child pornography that are reported to us, regardless of the source, but will only take action when that material violates our policies.That means we will accept reports even from people or groups that are annoying or have an axe to grind, but if content is not in violation of the policy, it won't have any effect.
This would be wonderful news, if it were reassuring to anyone other than a straw man.

Few if any LJ users believed that LJ representatives, either on the Abuse Prevention Team or otherwise, were themselves targeting fandom users or communities for investigation. Outside groups lumped fandom in with child predators first. The problem is that, the first time (i.e., Strikethrough), LJ took a few admitted bigots' word that everyone they reported was a real child pornographer or child predator, and the second time (i.e., Boldend), LJ representatives' personal biases were the sole basis of their decision to ban elaboration and ponderosa121.

We have received some assurance that there will not be a repeat of the first case, though the worth of those assurances depends on whether LJ's customers trust the company not to break its promises again.

There has been no assurance whatsoever that the second case could not happen to other users in the future, however. The two artists banned on or about 3 August 2007 allegedly had their content reviewed by at least two LJ representatives before they were banned; yet there still has not been an unequivocal or factually correct explanation of why those users were banned, only libellous assertions that the content they were banned for constituted child pornography under U.S. law (in some communications from LJ representatives regarding the suspensions) and the insulting suggestion that at least one artist's work met the Miller standard for obscenity because it 'does not contain serious artistic ... merit' and LiveJournal 'clearly did not see serious artistic value in' the artists' work.

These facts would be worrisome enough in a vacuum, but they are merely the most recent examples of LJ Abuse decisions which fly in the face of their own policies** (and policies have been tweaked after the fact to create a retroactive justification for a dubiously-based suspension at least once before).

LJ users are still just as vulnerable to witch-hunts initiated from outside the LJ community as we were before May's mass deletions, because the power to decide whether a complaint about a user's content is valid still rests entirely in the hands of people who have proven time and time again that they cannot make just or unbiased decisions.


Well, at least nobody is going to be banned without warning anymore... right? Yay...?
(b) Our process for drawings, cartoons, animation and other non-photographic images is slightly different. An image of this type that obviously violates our policy will be treated the same as a photographic image of child pornography, but in questionable cases involving a non-photographic image we will adopt a "two strikes" process. [emphasis mine]
Oh, the problems with this phrasing.

First, the section I've highlighted: This is akin to a list of rules which says, 'Any violation of the rules will be considered a violation of the rules'; if no other rules are listed, it's meaningless. What is being referred to with 'our policy' -- something in the forthcoming policy document which hasn't been written yet? It's a textbook example of circular reasoning.

The other problem with the highlighted section is that it says 'drawings, cartoons, animation and other non-photographic images ... will be treated the same as a photographic image'. Sure, there's a separate clause which adds that 'in questionable cases ... we will adopt a "two strikes" process'... but what are 'questionable cases'? Cases where it's difficult to determine whether the content is a photograph or not? Cases where it's difficult to determine whether a person depicted in the image is under eighteen years of age or not? Cases where it's difficult to determine whether the person depicted is a real minor (e.g., my neighbour's grandchild) or a fictional character (e.g., Charlie Brown of Peanuts fame)? Cases where a fictional child or teen is depicted but resembles a real minor who portrayed the character onscreen? Not addressing every possible example is reasonable, if only to avoid a policy document of infinite length, but failing to define terms renders any such document useless.


Right, well, a three-strikes rule would have been nicer, but two-strikes seems fair enough. Ya-- what now...?
(b) Our process for drawings, cartoons, animation and other non-photographic images is slightly different. An image of this type that obviously violates our policy will be treated the same as a photographic image of child pornography, but in questionable cases involving a non-photographic image we will adopt a "two strikes" process. [emphasis mine]
[...]
In the case of questionable links, we'll use the "two strikes" process.
(See above under banned without warning and below under links to content for further discussion of these two sections of the Process Change post.)

So, there will be one chance (in some cases; in other -- perhaps most -- cases, no second chance will apply) for a user to remove reported content which is found by [insert arcane and opaque LJ Abuse determination method here] to violate LJ's TOS or other forthcoming policy document. Once a user has had to take down content deemed inappropriate in their 'first chance' violation, any further report of inappropriate content by that user deemed by [insert arcane and opaque LJ Abuse determination method here] to have merit will result in the user being banned and their journal(s) deleted without further warning.

Let's see what would happen if LJ's users applied this sort of 'process' to LJ itself.
LiveJournal: Some of our users and communities may be making us look bad. There's nothing in our TOS or other policies which says that listing 'serial killers' or 'the holocaust' as an interest means the user approves of those things, but let's go ahead and kick them off the site and keep their money anyway. *Strikethrough*
LJ users: WTF? Hey! That's not fair! You violated our trust!
LiveJournal: Hmm, okay, we guess that was pretty offensive and uncalled-for. We didn't mean to violate your trust -- give us another chance, we'll never do that again!
LJ users: Okay, we'll give you another chance.
LiveJournal: Some of our users and communities may be making us look bad again. We'd better get rid of these people, even though what was reported to us as child pornography are clearly drawings and thus excluded from the legal definition of child pornography. Probably no one will notice so long as we do it quietly. And if anyone does notice, we can just pretend it really was child pornography, or violated the law in some other way -- that way no one can blame us. *Boldend*
LJ users: Well, we warned you! You did the same thing a second time. You lose us as customers, and you forfeit any money we paid you based on the terms you said you agreed to after you violated our trust the first time.


If a two-strikes policy were truly fair, LJ would be offering refunds, not circumlocutory platitudes, right now.


And they clarified their policy on links to content on other sites, and pretty soon after we asked! Yay, right...?
Many of you have asked about whether or not it is OK to link to outside content that falls into the category of child pornography, and the short answer is no, it's not OK. Think about it: If we said it was OK across the board to link to child pornography, then people would make communities just to do so.
There's a reason our online playground is called the Internet and the World Wide Web, and that reason is that different parts of it are hyperlinked together.
    Think about it:
  • IF a user discovers a (non-livejournal) website which contains content objectionable to that user, and posts a link to it in order to encourage other LJ users who read their journal to join in making protests to the company which hosts the content, THEN they could be banned by LiveJournal.
  • IF a user posts a link to a site hosting photographs of Robert Mapplethorpe's (or another artist's) controversial -- yet ruled non-obscene in a court of law -- artwork, because they wish to discuss it but don't wish to display the content itself on their journal, THEN they could be banned by LiveJournal.
  • IF a user posts a link to a site hosted in a country where the legal definition of child pornography excludes images of some persons under the age of eighteen, for the purpose of alerting fellow parents whose children may be considering studying abroad in (or already visiting) such countries, THEN they could be banned by LiveJournal.
  • IF a user posts a link to their (or someone else's) MySpace page, and the page linked to is subsequently 'goatsed' with an objectionable image as a result of its owner hotlinking images from yet another server (which recently happened to thousands of MySpace users), THEN they could be banned by LiveJournal.
  • IF a user posts a link to a Google Image Search results page based on having searched, with SafeSearch on, for (for example) "andy is this asian jerk i work with" or "can't beat a twinkie" and anyone else follows their link to the results page but has SafeSearch turned off, THEN they could be banned by LiveJournal.
  • IF a user posts a link to a website which displays a photograph of Jon-Benet Ramsey wearing a two-piece bathing suit, even if the intent of that site is to mourn or investigate her murder, THEN they could be banned by LiveJournal.
  • IF a user posted a link in their journal weeks, months or years ago to a website whose domain registration has since expired and is being 'cybersquatted' by someone making it display child pornography or other objectionable content, THEN they could be banned by LiveJournal.
  • IF anyone had actually created a journal for the sole purpose of posting links to unambiguous child pornography, THEN this argument might have a shred of merit.
And that's leaving entirely aside the fact that no one asked whether users could post links to child pornography on other sites from their LJs; the question which was asked by numerous users was whether they would be treated as if they had posted content LiveJournal found objectionable on LJ if all they did was post a link to another website where 'questionable content' was located.

There's additionally the fact that, far from a 'clarification' of or even a 'slight change' to existing policy, the new definition of hyperlinks as potentially ban-worthy 'content' is in fact a complete reversal of previous policy. Here is the guideline for handling reports of off-site objectionable content by LJ users, from the document the Abuse Prevention team themselves (are supposed to) use:

Non-LiveJournal Requests
Last updated: November 29th, 2004

Summary

Any report of abuse occurring off of LiveJournal's servers, such as on a message board, instant messenger service, or similar, even if both parties are LiveJournal users.

Action

Inform complainant that the Abuse Team can only act upon abuse taking place on LiveJournal's servers. Recommend that user hide contact information and contact the Abuse Department of the service on which they are experiencing the abuse.

Explanation

This one speaks for itself; we can't address any content which resides off of LiveJournal as, quite frankly, it's none of our business what occurs off our servers.

(HTML duplicated above in case of subsequent revision to source; link follows.) That last bit bears repeating:
we can't address any content which resides off of LiveJournal as, quite frankly, it's none of our business what occurs off our servers. LiveJournal and SixApart are not and should not be in the business of policing the content of the entire Internet.


But haven't the suspensions been rescinded? Can't we at least celebrate the return of the two artists to their LJ community?
This new process might have changed the way that two members were recently permanently suspended without warning. In respect to their privacy, we aren't going to get into details of any individual suspensions. But you should know we are reaching out to these people
'[M]ight have changed'...? Oh, I give up.

Yes, both [info]elaboration and [info]ponderosa121 (both artists have the same usernames at insanejournal.com as they had previously used on livejournal.com) were given the opportunity to have their accounts restored -- elaboration is already back, and posted the contents of the email she received from LJ/6A rescinding her suspension. Pond is so fed up with LiveJournal's behaviour that she doesn't want to come back.

Note, however, that in the midst of all the apologies in the 'Process Change for Non-Photographic Images' post, there is neither apology nor retraction for any of the libellous statements about the two artists made by various LJ representatives over the past couple of weeks. No word yet as to whether Pond will get an apology for LJ representatives having lied to other users about her stance on having been banned, either.

And, at least in [info]elaboration's case, LJ is counting her now-lifted suspension as 'strike one' -- so she can't afford to run afoul of Abuse's still vague, subjective and inconsistent process for deciding which journals' content is okay and which isn't even one more time before being banned again.


Yay, it's the end of the post! That was stressful. One last thing -- let's break down exactly what message LJ sent its users last night...

...I tried to do a numerical breakdown of how many sentences were actual policy/process statements, how many were apologetic, how many were appreciative, how many asserted the idea that 'we’re all ultimately on the same side', how many were statements of intent, and so on. I got about three paragraphs in and concluded I wasn't qualified to do that sort of analysis; maybe someone with a background in communications or psychology could give it a try. Heck, I may not even have been choosing the right categories; I didn't even differentiate 'we statements' from 'you statements', or single out sentences structured as statements of fact whose assertions are actually in dispute.

I remain convinced, however, that such an analysis would be illuminating, to say the least. I've picked at some of what [info]theljstaff said, but there's still enough of a lingering bad taste in my mouth that I think we, as users, ought to look at how they chose to say it, too.


Notes
*For everyone who can't visualise what I'm talking about: Here is a 6A promotional photo of Barak Berkowitz. Smaller versions are all over SixApart sites, including the management bios page at SixApart.com and Barak's typepad blog. And here is a cropped version of the same photo, run through exactly three Photoshop filters (Accented Edges, Colored Pencil, and Poster Edges) and with a slapdash painterly background created with faded gradients and the same three filters: Look, I 'painted' this picture of Barak -- feedback plz! :3.

**See this example of a policy being used to penalise one user but not against the reporting user who violated both the same (no posting personal information about other users) and other (no inciting violence, no racist hate speech) policies; this example of LJ Abuse aiding and abetting the harassment of an LJ user by a notorious crackpot, in defiance of multiple court rulings; this example in which accounts were suspended on the basis of mistaken identity and other accounts were suspended on the basis of Abuse inferring meaning neither intended by the user nor implicit in her words; and Nipplegate -- note that this is not an exhaustive listing.

Acknowledgments:
Special thanks to [info]akuma_river for this supremely useful collection of links to posts and comment threads related to these issues, and to the [info]metafandom team for collecting links to many posts not on that list.

ETA: Note to fellow Firefox users on IJ: if autofill is keeping you from accessing the choose userpic drop-down when posting a new entry via the web interface, you can change to a non-default icon by editing the entry after you post.

ETA2: Click here to override IJ's default display scheme colours and view this post in black text on a white background.


(Post a new comment)


[info]thete1
2007-08-15 02:11 am UTC (link)
Great post, honey. *snugs*

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]buggery
2007-08-16 04:24 am UTC (link)
::snugbacks::

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]brownbetty
2007-08-15 02:15 am UTC (link)
Hey, do you have a cite on the art=/=photos in kiddie porn?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]buggery
2007-08-16 05:19 am UTC (link)
I haven't yet found that post I read a few days ago which debunked the idea that LJ 'had to' delete [info]elaboration's and [info]ponderosa121's journals because their art was illegal... though since LJ has now invited them back, it's inarguable that the content in question *wasn't* illegal, as opposed to something LJ just didn't like.

However.

Here is a listing of all US federal legislation which applies to child pornography or things which might get lumped in with child pornography... from the website of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

A lot of it covers things which just aren't relevant to fandom, like the two long sections on sexual exploitation of actual minor children (ew, ew, ew). Here's the part everyone in fandom *should* be looking at:
18 U.S.C. 2256 – “CHILD PORNOGRAPHY” DEFINED

Child pornography is defined as any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, or computer or computer-generated image or picture, whether made or produced by electronic, mechanical, or other means, of sexually explicit conduct, where
  • the production of such visual depiction involves the use of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct;

  • such visual depiction is a digital image, computer image, or computer-generated image that is, or is indistinguishable from, that of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; or

  • such visual depiction has been created, adapted, or modified to appear that an identifiable minor is engaging in sexually explicit conduct.
That's it. Unless it's a 'photograph, film, [or] video,' 'or is indistinguishable from' a photo, film or video, or it depicts 'an identifiable minor' (the legal term 'minor' can *only* refer to a real person under age 18) it is not and cannot be child pornography.

There's separate law which covers artistic media other than photo, film, video or anything that's visually indistinguishable from an image captured with a camera, but it does not use the language 'child pornography':
18 U.S.C. 1466A – OBSCENE VISUAL REPRESENTATIONS OF THE SEXUAL ABUSE OF CHILDREN

It is forbidden to knowingly produce, distribute, receive, or possess with the intent to distribute, a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting, that
  • depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is obscene, or

  • depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex, and such depiction lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.
I underlined two very, very important clauses which synecdochic (aka rahaeli) conveniently omitted in order to 'prove' that, in her words, 'a drawing of a sixty-year-old Character A giving a blowjob to a twelve-year-old Character B is identical to a picture or a video of a sixty-year-old Person A giving a blowjob to a twelve-year-old Person B' under the law. She also misrepresented the law regarding 'obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children' -- which, granted, doesn't have the same ring to it -- as being the law regarding child pornography, which it patently is not; it's right there in the section headers which are part of the law.

I'd still like to find the analysis of what these two statutes mean for fandom that was done by an actual legal professional who isn't an LJ apologist, but this will do in the meantime.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]machineplay
2007-08-15 02:41 am UTC (link)
Thanks. You said this way better than I could.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]buggery
2007-08-16 05:22 am UTC (link)
I won't bother arguing the point -- I'd rather note that none of us has time or energy to post *everything* that needs to be said, but fannish division of labour seems for the most part to be solving that problem for us.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2007-08-15 03:25 am UTC (link)
Well said. I was mostly pleased by the lj-biz post because they finally said something coherent enough to be dissected, as opposed to the randomness of the previous steaming piles. But I still don't agree with them, nor feel reassured.

--Ruby, who has temporarily forgotten her IJ password

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 05:26 am UTC

[info]vassilissa.livejournal.com
2007-08-15 03:41 am UTC (link)
Excellent analysis. :-(

I sincerely apologise to anyone who finds IJ's theme offensive; I weighed this concern carefully against the need to have a journal host I felt I could trust not to arbitrarily delete my content. I hope to find a compromise which is more accomodating of both issues soon.

Thank you. It's comforting to see this mentioned and discussed.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 05:41 am UTC

[info]mecurtin
2007-08-15 04:00 am UTC (link)
I only disagree with one point in your post. I do not think it is established that the targets in Boldthrough or all the targets in Strikethrough were chosen by groups/forces/individuals outside LJ. I think it extremely likely that both (Boldthrough in particular) were inside jobs -- that the complaints were made by someone *in* fandom, probably someone who has a conflict with pornish_pixies. It's even possible that the instigator is not actually opposed to slash, chan, or fanart, but is setting LJ up as the Bad Cop so she can be the Good Cop.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 08:44 am UTC

[info]red_eft
2007-08-15 06:02 am UTC (link)
At this point, I'm just damn tired. I'm tired of trying to discern whether LJ actually wants to get rid of us or is just tremendously incompetent, I'm tired of waiting for them to get their act together. I trusted them before, and -well. Fool me once, etc. etc.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 08:51 am UTC

[info]vuurvasthouden
2007-08-15 03:00 pm UTC (link)

That Alex Lucard case is scary.

And the case you ref after that, it's just about what happened to me, almost; the psycho who got my LJ zuzpended was also a pathological liar who'd given me the password to her LiveJournal (a crazy nutrag ex of mine) but then lied to LJ about it and got me suspended. Stupid whore ruined not only my LJ life at the time, but my entire friends list. LJ Abuse is made up of a bunch of assholes.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 08:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vuurvasthouden, 2007-08-16 02:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-08-16 08:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vuurvasthouden, 2007-08-17 12:49 am UTC

[info]ding
2007-08-15 03:08 pm UTC (link)

http://insomnia.livejournal.com/682862.html

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 08:56 am UTC

[info]pinkmouse
2007-08-15 03:20 pm UTC (link)
I think the fact that we're discussing it here and not on LJ says everything.

Bye LJ, it was nice to know you, but you are now of nothing worth.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 09:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-08-16 08:07 pm UTC

[info]shadowstar
2007-08-15 03:35 pm UTC (link)
I think they're trying (very trying!) but not succeeding because they refuse to acknowledge or simply don't understand the underlying issues. It's sad, really, and... well, what [info]pinkmouse said.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 06:23 pm UTC

[info]barbayat
2007-08-15 03:53 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for gathering this so calmy and in an orderly fashion.

On top of that my problem is that this two strike rule allows you to make one mistake - a mistake you might not have been aware off as nobody can possibly guess what LJ might deem offensive.

So you get warned, post nothing of the kind anymore, then post something else unrelated that also is against LJs "community standards" and off you go- that sucks so badly.

As long as LJ doesn't agree to only ban real offenders who actually post pictures of REAL children being abused, I won't trust them, well and that would only be the beginning. I'm glad that I do have everything backed up to greates journal, from there I will occasionally lj-sec my posts to LJ and IJ ;)

No reason not to take up the bandwith I paid for (when I run out of paid time, I probably post everything f-locked)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 06:26 pm UTC

[info]shellydkitty
2007-08-15 04:08 pm UTC (link)
I knew the latest lj_biz post did not set well with me despite the cautious optimism from a lot of other people, but I never could explain so clearly why that was. But you've definitely done so here. Thank you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 06:27 pm UTC

[info]rusty_halo
2007-08-15 04:09 pm UTC (link)
This is a wonderful analysis. Thank you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 06:28 pm UTC

[info]scarah
2007-08-15 04:26 pm UTC (link)
An image of this type that obviously violates our policy will be treated the same as a photographic image of child pornography

What I still want to know is if this means they're reporting people to the NCMEC for cartoons and art.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 07:19 pm UTC

[info]amejisuto
2007-08-15 04:38 pm UTC (link)
This is a wonderfully thought out post and I plan on linking it later on this week on my LJ when I announce that I'm telling LJ/6A to take a flying leap. It explains just half of the reasons why I'm not giving LJ any more of my money! The fact that their customer service sucks is just the icing on the cow patty.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 07:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amejisuto, 2007-08-16 07:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-19 09:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amejisuto, 2007-08-20 01:52 am UTC

[info]slash_eater
2007-08-15 05:34 pm UTC (link)
Hello!

Never mind that you had to remove my comment there...;D
Since comments are disabled on LJ I followed you here to comment. :D

Like I said on LJ, this is one awesome post, thank you for your effort for making it!

*applauds*

And great Photoshop job!!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 07:24 pm UTC

[info]elfwreck
2007-08-15 08:08 pm UTC (link)
neither apology nor retraction for any of the libellous statements about the two artists made by various LJ representatives

Slanderous, I think, since they weren't said in public. (Unless there's comments on journal posts you're thinking of.) I think almost all the actual statements were made through email or other private settings.

But yes... someone needs to pester lawyers to find out if fandom-on-LJ can sue for libel for that "we've been asked about linking to child pornography" thing.

(If I'm feeling inspired this weekend, maybe I'll sort out the actual statements in the LJ-biz post. That strikes me as... an interesting exercise.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 07:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-08-16 07:41 pm UTC

[info]inalasahl.livejournal.com
2007-08-15 10:39 pm UTC (link)
And as usual, the conflation of child pornography and {non-photographic artwork depicting naked and/or sexually positioned persons under the age of eighteen, whether the subjects are real or fictional persons} is rampant in comments by LJ staff in comments on the post.

Like here:
Rachel says, "This isn't about fanfic. It never has been. That's why we don't address fanfic specifically... this is about childporn." (http://community.livejournal.com/lj_biz/242136.html?thread=14165208#t14165208)

I cannot believe LJ is pretending it doesn't understand how this whole debacle relates to fandom and fanworks.

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(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 07:30 pm UTC

[info]sapphoq
2007-08-16 05:01 am UTC (link)

Nope, I don't believe them.
Thanks for the very very thorough explanation.
I came to your explanation from your link over at the innocence_jihad.

spike

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(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 07:30 pm UTC

[info]slashpine
2007-08-16 05:22 am UTC (link)
You had me at circumlocutory platitudes.

Brilliance and subversive fandom *are* my kinks. Must be why I left LJ :-)

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(no subject) - [info]buggery, 2007-08-16 07:34 pm UTC

[info]nilamarthiel
2007-08-20 07:54 am UTC (link)
You = Absolute and Utter Win. Seriously, I need to elope with your brain. ♥

Even though my journal nor the fanfiction it contains were not affected, and I don't post a lot on journals I fans of (such as yours, Te's, Betty's, red_eft's, etc.), I still felt the need to migrate as well. Who knows? I could be an Importunt Peeple On Zee Intarwebz, but here in my safe padded InsaneJournal. 8D

...At least, I hope it will be for a while.

Hanyway! Excellent post on the subject matter. You said everything I was feeling about this ordeal a gajillion times more intelligently than I ever could. Cheers!

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